LEILA FADEL, HOST:
For more on Secretary of State Marco Rubio's visit to the Vatican, we called Miguel Diaz. He's a former ambassador to the Holy See during the Obama administration and a professor of theology at Loyola University, Chicago. We spoke just before Pope Leo and Secretary Rubio were meeting.
Ambassador, I mean, you're a diplomat. Is it possible for this meeting to go well when the Secretary of State's boss, the president of the United States, has been attacking the pope?
MIGUEL DIAZ: Yes, it is possible for the meeting to go well because the Vatican has been doing diplomacy and has had - has dealt with difficult issues and much more, you know, issues that have been very difficult than the ones that are currently being addressed. That said, Marco Rubio's job, the Secretary of State's job is a difficult one, given the context that he's entering into this conversation.
FADEL: What would success look like for both Marco Rubio and Pope Leo in this meeting?
DIAZ: The United States has been relating to the Holy See as a sovereign entity, a global humanitarian actor and as a moral voice that has consistently defended the dignity of all human persons. And so what the pope has been doing, as already has been previously, you know, stated, is the pope has been doing his job as both the head of the Holy See and the head of the world's Catholics. And so in terms of success, you know, Marco Rubio has to listen to what the pope has to offer in terms of the wisdom that this institution has carried. You know, we call this institution an institution that has ears and eyes everywhere and that is trying to act on behalf of the common good. And so when I was the ambassador, the three Ls were, you know, something that we practice, which is to listen to the other, to learn from the other and to lead as a result of that listening. And I think listening is going to be very important for these two as they get together and they try to mend what is undoubtedly some very difficult and unfortunate comments by the president when he said that the pope was terrible on foreign policy.
FADEL: How significant is it that the secretary of state is having this meeting at all at this time of war and - I mean, at this time of war with Iran?
DIAZ: Well, I think this is very significant. This is the pope that from the beginning has called for an unarmed and disarming peace. This is a central theme of his papacy. The United States and the Holy See have traditionally collaborated on issues like combating hunger, human rights, religious freedom, global health, peace and security. And so these are central themes that every ambassador in every administration has worked together with the Holy See. Many of these themes have been compromised as a result of the policies that have undermined, for instance, USAID, and now they're being undermined by a war that is threatening the lives of millions of people and the instability around the world. And so I think this is a very significant meeting. And the Vatican has played a key role as a neutral voice, bringing various nations together precisely at times of war like this to try to mend, you know, conflict and prevent conflict, but also then once conflict begins, to try to end conflict. And so I think that, you know, we are too polarized, both as a nation and as a world. It would be great success if, you know, out of that meeting, the secretary of state leaves, in some ways, with some wisdom to bring back to the States and to the president that the human family does not need any more conflict, but that the human family needs to, you know, get on the road to healing and reconciliation.
FADEL: Is there a risk for the Trump administration politically if the president continues to attack the pope and this tension just grows?
DIAZ: Well, I think that the risk is we've seen it now in the polls. You know, we've seen with the images, we've seen with the words. I mean, words matter, and images matter. We can use the power of human words to construct and build bridges or we can use them to destroy and polarize us. We can do the same thing with images. You know, many have been very critical of, you know, images that have been put out there by - you know, with the president being depicted as Jesus. And so I think that, yes, you know, it is a time that we really need to turn to the constructive power of the word and and realize that there are political implications as well as human implications in terms of our family.
FADEL: Former U.S. ambassador to the Holy See, Miguel Diaz. Thank you for your time.
DIAZ: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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