MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio and Pope Leo discussed efforts to resolve conflicts in the Middle East. That, according to a state department spokesman. They are meeting at the Vatican today, follows weeks of attacks by President Trump on the first American pope. Among his complaints, Trump accused Leo of endangering Catholics because of his opposition to the Iran war and he repeated his false claim that the pope supports Iran having nuclear weapons. The pope rejected that and said the church opposes all nuclear arms. Reporter Megan Williams is with us now from Rome to tell us more.
Good morning, Megan
MEGAN WILLIAMS: Good morning.
MARTIN: So just remind us of how relations between the White House and Pope Leo got to this point.
WILLIAMS: Yeah. It's been an unusually public rupture. Pope Leo has been a firm critic of the U.S.-Israeli war on Iran. He's called for diplomacy and warned against the use of force, which is nothing out of the ordinary for a Catholic leader. But Trump hasn't liked it, and in April, he called the pope weak and also terrible on foreign policy. Then on Monday, Trump went further. He said the pope was endangering a lot of Catholics by opposing the war, and he repeated the false claim that Leo supports Iran having nuclear weapons. Now, Leo pushed back. On Tuesday, he told reporters the Catholic Church has spoken out for years against nuclear arms and that its mission is to preach peace.
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POPE LEO XIV: And I always believe that it's much better to enter into dialogue than to look for arms and to support the arms industry, which gains billions and billions of dollars each year, instead of sitting down at the table solving our problem.
WILLIAMS: But despite the pope saying he's not interested in a spat with Trump and making his position clear, Trump said again on Wednesday the pope is OK with Iran having nuclear weapons.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: As far as the pope is concerned, and it's very simple, whether I make him happy or I don't make him happy, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. And he seemed to be saying that they can. And I say they cannot because if that happened, the entire world would be hostage, and we're not going to let that happen. That's my only message.
WILLIAMS: So with this back-and-forth, Rubio's meeting with the pope was not a routine diplomatic visit. He had the awkward assignment of trying to smooth relations with the Vatican as Trump keeps picking fights with the pope.
MARTIN: So what were Leo and Rubio each trying to accomplish with this visit?
WILLIAMS: The pope was looking beyond the personal spat with Trump. He's worried about Iran, but also Israel and Lebanon, the risks to ever-shrinking Christian communities in the region. Also, he likely brought up the crackdown on immigrants in the U.S., which he has been very critical of. The state department released a statement after the encounter saying the two discussed the situation in the Middle East, among other issues. It said that the U.S. and the Vatican have a shared commitment to promoting peace and human dignity. So it was typically vague of these kinds of statements after meetings like this. But given how short the list is of shared commitments, it's also indicative of the gulf between the Vatican and the White House on so many issues. Now, to be fair to Rubio, he had to walk a tightrope. He had to show respect to the pope while staying true to the president, who has repeatedly attacked the pope. And, says Vatican observer Massimo Faggioli, he also had to avoid irritating the Vatican in ways Vice President J.D. Vance has.
MASSIMO FAGGIOLI: J.D. Vance's standing in the eyes of the Vatican has not improved, and certainly it didn't help in April when he said the pope should be careful when he talks about theology.
MARTIN: I understand that Rubio is also meeting with the Italian prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, who also got pulled into this, and hopefully, we'll hear more about those meetings later. That is Megan Williams in Rome.
Megan, thank you.
WILLIAMS: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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